Mark Robinson Photo: PHOTOSPORT
NZ Rugby's boss Mark Robinson is one of those 'up' people, something that shines through in spite of all the 'down' news surrounding the sport.
Something has shifted in New Zealand, where rugby was once woven into our national identity, where kids grew up dreaming of the black jersey, and entire towns paused on test night.
It seemed muddy boots and grassroots games were stitched into the fabric of who we were.
But today our national game is hurting. Super Rugby crowds are thinning. Young talent is walking away. And the financial strain on provincial unions is deepening.
And now New Zealand Rugby has just reported a loss of $19.5 million for the 2024 financial year - the third consecutive year in the red, with an $8.9m loss in 2023 and a $47m loss in 2022.
These are sobering figures and have sparked urgent questions about the future of the sport we once considered untouchable.
But chief executive Mark Robinson says he is confident about where the game is heading.
"Our business is really complex and multi-layered, but I remain hugely optimistic about what the near-term and long-term future is," he says.
"We know we are getting a lot of things right... and when it comes to the financial loss, I think it's important to have a bit of context. When we look at what we have done over the past few years, we have made a lot of investment choices for growth."
While he acknowledged the financial strain is real and challenging, he remained committed to turning it around.
"We believe the long-term future is heartening."
He highlighted growth in matchday revenue and sponsorship - Toyota has just been announced as a replacement sponsor for British petrochemical firm INEOS.
"Toyota is one of the biggest brands in the world... and is just an incredible partner. Every rugby club you go to in New Zealand has a Toyota connection. It's a great fit."
He teased more sponsorship deals to be revealed in the near future but would not - or could not - be drawn on TV and digital deals, and where NZR negotiations are at with Sky.
"Conversations are really constructive. You will appreciate I can't share an awful lot of where we are at, but we are really heartened with the progress we are making at the moment."
He is equally happy with how Super Rugby Pacific is tracking this year, saying games are flowing fast, competition is tight, upsets are occurring, and players and coaches are engaging more openly.
"Overall, we are very happy," he tells The Detail, predicting a New Zealand team will win the competition.
He did acknowledge stadium numbers are not as good as they could be, and work is being done about the "in-stadium experience", focusing on food, drink, and entertainment.
When asked about his relationship with Eden Park, after NZR backed the waterfront stadium and opted to host All Blacks games overseas, Robinson replied: "We have a long-held respect for them... I think we are all grown-ups around things like this."
Other topics covered by The Detail today include -
* All Black sabbaticals - "We are creating long-term loyalty and recognising long-term loyalty as well."
* Flexibility on the rules after star Richie Mo'unga signed a three year deal to play in Japan - "If you want to wear that black jersey, you have got to be here."
* The state of women's rugby - "We are definitely taking a long-term approach... but we have record numbers of women and girls involved in the game. And already, the World Cup in England is the most ticketed women's World Cup event ever, so that's great news."
* Getting kids back into the game - "We have had really heartening statistics around the growth of grassroots rugby in the last couple of years, we are back at around pre-Covid level, after losing tens of thousands of players."
* And public scrutiny as NZR boss - "Early on in the role, you are a bit more sensitive to some of the things that are said and done... but you have to be open and honest when mistakes are made and resilient enough when things are said or done that are unfair and unreasonable. But you have to stay high."
Ultimately, he believes rugby is alive and thriving. And he remains focused on the job.
"There is a lot of scrutiny of the game, a lot of care and passion, but I thank people for that; it means a lot to us. You ask if I am okay, well, the day that people don't care or don't have a view on it, I will be more worried then, that's the day to be concerned about."
Check out how to listen to and follow The Detail here.
You can also stay up-to-date by liking us on Facebook or following us on Twitter.
